Episode 2: Conversation with Bob Shepherd from MediVisuals

Ep. 2 Transcript

Bob Shepherd: Anybody can call themselves a medical illustrator, and with the anatomical models, digital models you can buy on the internet, and make them spin around, and put your name on them, it makes people think that you know what you’re doing when you may not. Unfortunately, attorneys are a very vulnerable market because they don’t have the medical background to look at this stuff and see whether it’s accurate or not.

David Craig – host: Today, I’m excited because I have Bob Shepherd as a guest. He is an award-winning medical legal illustrator. Bob and his company provide truthful, accurate, and persuasive medical illustrations, animations, 3D digital models, 3D physical models, as well as interactive digital presentations. These medical illustrations and medical visuals will make a powerful impact and help ensure that you get the compensation you deserve.

David Craig – host: I’m attorney Dave Craig, managing partner and one of the founders of the law firm of Craig, Kelley & Faultless. I’ve represented people who have been seriously injured or who have had a family member killed in a semi or other big truck wreck for over 30 years. Following the wreck, their lives are chaos. Often, they don’t even know enough about the process to ask the right questions. It is my goal to empower you by providing you with the information you need to protect yourself and your family. In each and every episode, I will interview top experts and professionals that are involved in truck wreck cases. This is After the Crash.

David Craig – host: Bob, thank you so much for joining our podcast.

Bob Shepherd: Thank you. Pleasure being here.

David Craig – host: Let’s begin with just telling us a little bit about yourself.

Bob Shepherd: Well, I’m a medical illustrator and animator. I’ve been in the business for over 35 years and run the biggest medical illustration company in North America, probably the world, all modesty side. In our 35 years, we’ve done just over 34,000 cases. Last week, we just tripped the 34,000 cases mark. It’s been a real adventure, a real learning experience.

David Craig – host: That’s fantastic. I think a lot of people don’t really realize or know what a medical illustrator is, and I’m not sure that even lawyers know the difference between a good one and a bad one. There’s a lot goes into becoming a medical illustrator. You just don’t sit down one day and say, “Okay, I’m a medical illustrator.” I know with you, you have a master’s degree. So tell us a little bit about the educational background and what’s involved in becoming a good medical illustrator.

Bob Shepherd: Yeah, thanks for asking that. There are only four accredited master’s degrees programs in medical illustration in North America. There’s one at Augusta University in Georgia, one at Johns Hopkins, one at the University of Chicago in Illinois, and one in Toronto. We have 18 medical illustrators, and all of our people have master’s degrees from one of those programs. When you take those programs, we’re taking the same medical courses, or a lot of the same medical courses, with the medical students, plus illustration courses. We go to the OR and observe surgery. We take the same tests they take. It’s a very arduous and detailed program.

Bob Shepherd: We get our people from those programs, and we get the cream of the crop from those programs. Right now, we’ve got a really good mix of people. We’ve got a lot of people that have been with us since the beginning. Then, we’ve got some newer people that are up on the technology, more than us old school people who know the anatomy and medicine and know the legal world a lot better than the new people do. So it’s a good, a good mix of knowledge that we can bring to cases, plus the experience of working with people like you and some of the best medical experts in the country for all these years. We have learned a lot.

David Craig – host: That’s important, because to be a medical illustrator, for people to hold out as a medical illustrator, you have some that are not as qualified, correct? I mean they don’t have to … Just say I’m a medical illustrator and put their ad on the website, you got folks out there who have not got the same medical background as your folks.

Bob Shepherd: Oh yeah, that’s very true. Anybody can call themselves a medical illustrator. With the anatomical models, digital models you can buy on the internet, and make them spin around, and put your name on them, it makes people think that you know what you’re doing when you may not. Unfortunately, attorneys are a very vulnerable market because they don’t have the medical background to look at this stuff and see whether it’s accurate or not.

David Craig – host: Yeah. My goal with these podcasts is to empower people with knowledge. I want people to understand and to be able to ask their lawyers intelligent questions that might help them get a better result or increase the value of their cases. Even as an attorney, years ago … I think John Romano, an attorney out of Florida, introduced me to you probably five, six years ago.

Bob Shepherd: It’s been every bit of that.

David Craig – host: Yeah, maybe even longer. I remember complaining to him, at the time, about the medical illustrator, which I was using a medical illustrator that’s well-known, but yet at the same time, their degree of specifications, or their willingness and desire to be specific and accurate, was nothing compared to you all. I was working with a doctor and the doctor’s like, “Well, you’ve got the wrong tools here. This surgical board is not really that accurate. Most surgeries are like that, but the one I performed, that was reflected in the records, was different.”

David Craig – host: So I remember how frustrated I was because I lost confidence in that doctor. That doctor immediately looked at me differently because I had not accurately depicted the surgery that he had performed. Then, when I was talking to John about that, John was like, “Well hey, look, try Medivisuals, because I guarantee you, these guys, they know the medical side.” Since then, it’s been wonderful. It’s been like night and day. I think that’s extraordinarily important for people to know. If they’re hiring a lawyer, we’re going to talk to them today and educate them today about why they need medical visuals. But then, not only do they need them, they need accurate ones.

Bob Shepherd: Yeah. You can only get so far with inaccuracy. You can get a little way, but there does come a time when accuracy has got to be there, like early in the case, maybe up through a mediation, as long as you don’t take any depositions before then. But when you’re asking a credible witness to look at a drawing and say, “Is this a fair and accurate depiction,” that’s his reputation on the line. If it’s not accurate, you’re asking him to commit perjury, in my eyes. So it’s very important that everything be right, because if the illustration isn’t credible, then our expert loses his credibility. When he uses loses his credibility, you lose your credibility and the client’s whole case loses their credibility.

David Craig – host: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. I think it’s important, not only has your group got the people who are qualified, I mean who have the background in the medical illustration area, but you also work. I mean you guys fascinate me because I’ve come to you before with a serious brain injury, and you have worked with the top doctors and the top lawyers and top trial consultants to develop and design visuals that are effective, that persuade people. Tell us a little bit about how you work together with people to come up with something that’s really accurate and good and persuasive.

Bob Shepherd: Yeah. Well, it really is a team effort. Lots of these things are. A lot of times, the attorney will have a great conceptual idea of what he’d like to show, but it’s not really solid with facts. If we can get a good conception of what an attorney wants, then we can work with the attorney, and the experts, and the trial consultant, and come up with telling the story, educating a jury, educating an insurance representative or mediator in a way that they can understand, a lot of times, very complicated things. Then, it closes the deal because seeing is believing, especially in a lot of the, like you’re saying, brain injury cases.

Bob Shepherd: You’re not talking about brain injury cases where there’s a massive skull fracture and a hematoma. The brain injury cases you’re talking about are the very subtle brain injury cases where there’s little to no evidence of brain injury on the CT or MRI, and getting people to understand that, where you look at a CT or MRI and there’s nothing there, and getting them to understand that no, there’s nothing there, there’s not supposed to be anything there. These are microscopic injuries we’re talking about. With enough practice and experience doing that, we can get people to understand that.

David Craig – host: Well, I know that with brain injury cases, again, you’re absolutely right. It’s hard to explain what you can’t see, so jurors don’t understand it. Doctors and lawyers, even the defense lawyers, and a lot of plaintiffs’ lawyers, unfortunately, don’t understand it. I’ve used the visual that you put together, the animation, showing the destruction and how, over time, cells are destroyed. I’ve shown that to the doctors that I’ve worked with, and instantly, they’re like, “Oh my God, that is it. I mean, that visually shows it. That is it.” They are so fascinated and so impressed.

David Craig – host: Now unfortunately, I haven’t gotten to take one of those cases to trial because they’ve always settled with me after they’ve seen the video, and they’ve showed it to their doctors. But I think that is really powerful, and I think you worked hard. I’m confident. I mean I don’t know how much time was put into getting that video that shows the brain damage, but tell us a little bit. Maybe I can show just a clip of that when they actually see this, but tell me a little bit about developing that because it’s fascinating. It’s powerful and persuasive.

Bob Shepherd: Well, that was a very interesting project. We’ve done a few of those over time, where there was a need for it in the legal community. But asking one client, one attorney, one law firm to pony up the money to pay for this one particular animation, which has such a broad scope of application … What we did was we actually did the research and put together the whole project, and then found a couple experts after we had already put everything together mostly and asked them to take a look at it and make sure it was accurate. We did all the research. We have the references, the bibliography, everything needed to back it up, so we did all that.

Bob Shepherd: But before we did all that, we sent out emails to you and a lot of the other people that we thought would have a need for this project in the future. We said, “Look, instead of one guy having to pay $80,000 for this animation, let’s get 40 people that pay $2,000 each, and then we’ll have this thing that can help a lot of people, and not one person’s going to have to pony up all that money. ”

David Craig – host: Let’s talk generally. Some of these folks may not know what a medical illustration is or an animation and what 3D animation is. So walk us through, just generally, what type of exhibits are created for ordinary injury clients that have significant or serious injuries.

Bob Shepherd: Well, the typical meat and potatoes projects we do are cervical disc injuries, back injuries. It’s the same that you do. That’s the meat and potatoes of any law practice or personal injury law practice. What we do is take the scans, the MRIs that are hard for people to understand what they’re looking at. Then, we take those illustrations or those scans, the slices, the x-rays, and then create an illustration based on those that, in three dimensions, help people that don’t have the knowledge and experience of reading films. It helps them understand what they’re looking at, what the relevance is of that. So with injuries, that’s a very big part of what we do.

Bob Shepherd: Then, another part of what we do, that a lot of people, a lot of medical illustrators think, “I still don’t get,” and perhaps a lot of attorneys, as well, is we try and show the surgeries. When we look at the surgeries, we’re looking at those as the second traumatic event. You have the first traumatic event that hurts a plaintiff, and then you have the second traumatic event, which oftentimes is even more injurious than the first injury, where they go in, and they cut soft tissues. They retract them. They put in hardware, screws. It’s not just that it’s in there, it’s how it gets in there. There’s a lot of force and trauma. Then, there’s permanent scar tissue that’s in there, all around that when it’s over. If you don’t put the emphasis on how it gets in there, it falls short.

David Craig – host: What we normally see is you guys will produce an illustration of what the injury looks like, and you guys will look at, and often look at the MRI or CT scan, whatever you have, or x-ray. What I love about it is you’ll oftentimes put that on the same board as, then, your illustration. Anybody who’s looked at CT scans or x-rays, or MRIs knows that they’re really hard to look at and see. Even if you’ve been doing this for over 30 years, like I have, I still look at them, and it’s hard. Now, for me to show an educated claims adjuster, or a defense lawyer, or ultimately a jury, I need something that they can see quickly, and it’s easy to see and identify. But you guys do a great job. You often put the actual film and then you’re enhanced or drawn, right?

Bob Shepherd: Yeah, we’ll do that. A lot of times, now that we’re doing things more and more digitally in this COVID environment, we’ll take an x-ray, and then the illustration will gradually appear over the top of it so that everything aligns exactly over what’s underneath it. It gives it a lot of authoritativeness, and it shows how accurate it is. A lot of times, if you’re cutting corners, you don’t do that. Other illustrators don’t do it. They put it to the side so the things don’t line up exactly, and they say, “This is sort of what it looks like.” But whenever it lines up exactly with the x-ray, you know it’s an accurate picture.

David Craig – host: That’s powerful. I mean like you said, in a court room especially, you want to build credibility. Anything that is not credible hurts your clients. So it’s very important that it’s accurate, and not only is it accurate though, you can put all the facts in to a jury and still not get a good result because it’s not persuasive. What I see so many lawyers do is they feel like if they just deliver the information, then they’ll get the result they want, and that’s not true. It has to be visually pleasing and persuasive, right?

Bob Shepherd: Right. Well, your delivery, too. I’ve heard you speak many times. I haven’t seen you in a courtroom, but I’ve seen you speak at various conferences across the country, national big conferences. Just listening to you speak, other attorneys, me, other people in the room, are tuned into you because you have a delivery, and you have a sincerity that grasps attention. People tune in, and then they remember. Those are two key things that during hours of a trial, or days of a trial, or weeks of a trial are critical.

David Craig – host: Well, I appreciate that. One of the things that helps me at trial is how simple complicated injuries and surgeries become with your illustrations. I can remember when I used to try cases without them. I mean, 35 years ago, or 30, whenever I started 30 some years ago, in trying to walk people through it, it was so much more challenging. Even trying to get doctors to explain it was so frustrating and so boring. Now, it’s not.

Bob Shepherd: Right, and if you’re paying your experts and your witnesses by the hour to testify, imagine how much money you’re saving you and your client by expediting their message and their delivery. Think of what kind of friends you’re making with the jurors who are sitting there thinking, “I need to get out of here,” when you can get it done quickly instead of drag on and on and on.

David Craig – host: Yeah. Well, let’s talk a little bit about the benefit of using medical illustrations. My job as a lawyer is to maximize the value of every case I have. I look at every single case. I don’t care what case it is. I plan on trying that case to a jury if I have to, but I’ll settle it if my clients would like me to, and we’re offered fair numbers along the way. So we get you involved before I ever go to mediation. I’ll get you involved before the doctor’s depositions. I think that’s important for ordinary people to know and ask their lawyers, “Hey, have you thought about a medical illustration? Have you thought about one that shows my injuries, that shows my surgeries,” because we want to educate people in the very beginning. Let’s just start off with the adjusters, the insurance representatives. How may they benefit from seeing a medical illustration?

Bob Shepherd: Early on in valuing a case, the insurance adjusters establish a reserve for a case. They have a formula, a very conservative formula, that they apply to anybody’s routine injury, and that’s the value they’re going to give it. Unless you’re fighting early on for your client, to get them that reserve set high in the beginning, it’s very hard to move them off that reserve. They’re busy people. They’ve got that got tons of cases. They’ve got records stacked to the ceiling. If we can give them visuals that condense all that information into understandable images, like you were talking about before, then we’ve made a friend. They’ve got an accurate depiction of the reserve. They don’t have to be embarrassed going back to their managers saying, “I set this reserve wrong.” Right out of the gate, we’ve already helped.

David Craig – host: I love having them. I don’t know how many attorneys you work with. Do most of your attorneys try to get this stuff ready before mediations and use them at mediation?

Bob Shepherd: Oh, yeah. I would say the best ones do. There’s another school where they gamble, trying to settle the case, and don’t want to spend any money on it until after a mediation. Then, it’s an uphill battle after that.

David Craig – host: I love having your illustrations, and I order the big ones, the blown up ones. I like them mounted in my office, like, “Why don’t we …” “No, let’s just have Bob and Medivisuals put them together for us.” I love lining a conference room, all around me, with your blowups, your visuals. A lot of times, I’ll have one where it’s the whole body, so we can look at every injury. So you can look at, “Oh my God, this person, look at all their injuries throughout their body.” You guys will label each and everything, and then we’ll have a specific board for each injury, and then the surgeries, and then sometimes a second surgery. Sometimes they’re removing hardware, whatever it is. I surround my mediation room with those.

David Craig – host: I just don’t understand why any lawyer wouldn’t do it. Even if I had to settle the case for less than fair, my client made me, I would eat the cost. I don’t care because to do it right, and to actually increase the value of a case, you’ve got to show the adjusters and the mediator that you mean business, that you’re prepared to go to trial if you have to be.

Bob Shepherd: Right. It works for people that haven’t even gone to trial. But for those like you, they already know that you are more than willing to go to trial. I mean you’re disappointed when a case settles at mediation because you want to go to trial, so having that credibility. A lot of attorneys are afraid to go to trial, but the opponents, the defense, they’re afraid to go to trial, too. Somebody that has the experience, like you, and they know they’re going to go to trial, the defense knows they’re going to go to trial, that just gives you a lot more power when you show it, too. It works for people who haven’t gone to trial, when it looks like they’re going to go to trial. But like a lot of the best attorneys do, sometimes you’ve got to take it on the chin and be willing to risk more than you can gain just to develop that reputation, to do what’s right for your client.

David Craig – host: Don’t you agree that taking your boards in and your medical illustrations, whether yours or somebody else’s, when you put them in, taking them into mediation makes sense for the mediator as well as the other side?

Bob Shepherd: Oh yeah. We’ve had mediators tell us repeatedly how helpful they are in their decision-making process, not only in the injuries but how you can correlate an aggravation of a pre-existing injury to a traumatic event. In those situations especially, visuals are really helpful because sometimes it’s just hard for somebody without the medical knowledge to grasp the subtleties in how that can happen.

David Craig – host: I think another thing is, again, going back to it simplifies the explanation. I mean when you have pre-existing degenerative disc disease, a lot of defense lawyers know that they can take that to a jury and confuse a jury and come out with either a low verdict or a defense verdict. The great thing about showing somebody in a persuasive format that’s visual is that they learn they’re not going to get away with it on this case.

Bob Shepherd: Right. Yeah, exactly. They like to use that for them. I mean it helps their case, but you’ve twisted it around before and used it to your advantage by saying, “Okay, this is an eggshell plaintiff. He already had some problems. So when there was this rear impact collision that hardly left any vehicular damage, it didn’t take that much injury to push him over the edge, that much force.” It’s really a win. In the trial lawyer’s eyes, preexisting conditions are a good thing.

David Craig – host: Absolutely. For years, I walked in and courtrooms and said, “My client was easier to hurt and harder to fix because of this pre-existing condition,” easier to hurt, harder to fix. Now, with your visuals, for the last however many years you and I have been working together, we can show it. Not only do they have to trust me, but I can show it, and my doctors can use it to explain it.

Bob Shepherd: Oh yeah, yeah, seeing is believing, for sure.

David Craig – host: Obviously, almost every client would prefer to settle if they can. Unfortunately, in this day and age, to get a fair number, you don’t always get it done at mediation, so you have to be prepared to go to trial. Talk a little bit about how you’ve been involved in getting exhibits ready and getting medical visuals, or illustrations, or animations ready for the lawyers, so that they can effectively increase value of client’s cases.

Bob Shepherd: Well essentially, as you know, when a lawyer has a case, they just call us and tell us a little bit about it. With a brief description, and me asking the right questions in the back and forth that we always do, we tell you and other people what records we need, what imaging studies. You send them to us. We review them, and we come up with a proposal that includes examples we’ve done from other cases and an estimate of what it would cost to do illustrations similar to those except specific to your case. Sometimes, they can be used just like they are, like the brain injury animation you were talking about earlier. We have a lot of stock illustrations.

Bob Shepherd: Over the years we’ve done, I don’t even have a number, but I know it’s hundreds of thousands of illustrations in our library. We keep them organized digitally, so we can go back. We have them categorized, so we can go back and find things. They can either be used as they are, or we can piece things together. So you can get really quality graphics for a fraction of the price that it would cost to do something from scratch at that kind of quality. That’s one of the things that sets us apart from other people, the quality for the price. It can’t be beat.

David Craig – host: When we go into a mediation, a lot of lawyers, their goal is to settle at mediation. My goal is not. I tell my clients upfront, percentage wise, I have a really bad rate for settling at mediations. I’m like, “Oh my God, you might want to pick a different lawyer,” because I know I’m not going in to settle. But what I’m doing is I’m going in to educate. I want to educate them because when they came into that room, they have a certain amount of money that they’re going to come with. They round tabled it. They’ve got their reserves set. They’ve come in. But my goal is to get more than that, always, always. So we want to go in and educate them by showing, on the medical side, we want to show them the injury. We want to show them the surgery, the second trauma, the surgery, and then we want to talk to them about how it’s affecting them. So we use settlement videos or interviews with people who know them.

David Craig – host: But very rarely do I go in wanting to just accept whatever they came there to pay me, so most of my cases don’t get settled at mediation. They get settled afterwards. We’ve been using, and I wanted to talk to you, but we’ve been using settlement videos. We use your medical illustrations in those settlement videos. We will actually even go interview the doctor and use those medical illustrations. Are you seeing much of that?

Bob Shepherd: I’m seeing more and more of that, especially now with the Covid. You can’t sit face to face and talk with anybody anymore and present your arguments and your side of the case. A video is so effective, if you can get a good video that tells the whole story. Like we were saying before, these guys are busy. They’ve got who knows how many cases they’re working on at the same time, stacks of medical records. If you can tell a good convincing story in a video, I think that is the way to go these days if you’re really trying to settle a case.

David Craig – host: I guess, in closing, the medical illustrations, animations, all are used by, I think, the best lawyers. The best lawyers should be looking out for their client’s interests. They shouldn’t be worried about how much money it’s going to cost them on the front end. They should be looking about what is the return on the investment. A good medical illustration is going to be far greater than any investment you’re going to have. But from somebody who’s never picked a lawyer before, never picked a medical illustrator before, what questions do you think that an ordinary person could ask their lawyer, if they’re going to go hire a lawyer? What questions could they ask about so that they would pick the right medical illustration and use them right?

Bob Shepherd: Well, that’s a good question. There’s a lot of good questions probably. I think first I would ask for a CV and see where they got a degree, if they even have a degree. I would ask for not only examples of their work but examples of their work that pertain specifically to your case. If you have a neck and back case, say, “What would you do for a neck and back case?” If they can’t show you anything that they would do, then they probably don’t have any experience in that area. Or if something they show you doesn’t look effective, then maybe that’s not the person for you. But there’s a lot of styles in medical illustrators, and a lot of attorneys think different styles are more effective than others.

Bob Shepherd: I welcome any invitations to have our graphics put up against other people’s graphics and do a focus group. It doesn’t have to be a formal focus group. We could just get people together in your office and say, “Hey guys, which one of these examples of illustrations from different illustrations companies most effectively shows our client’s injuries and how severe they are?” That’s what I would do. There’s more to doing an illustration than the training. There’s the experience. But if your experiences have all been bad experiences, you just have bad experiences.

David Craig – host: I would add to that. I think those are fantastic questions, and I think as a young lawyer or a lawyer who doesn’t do this, and they’re trying to improve their game, or a client who’s wanting to make sure that their lawyers are doing the right things, I think absolutely. I’m always happy. I always tell clients, “Pick three lawyers, and then interview them. Narrow it down to who you think the best are, and then talk to them and interview with them because you want the best for your team. You’ve got one case. The lawyer may have a whole bunch of cases. An illustrator has a ton of illustrations, but you’ve got one case. You better make sure that you’ve got the right attorney, and you better make sure they’ve got the right team, and part of that team has got to be the medical illustrator.”

Bob Shepherd: Yeah, you only have one shot.

David Craig – host: You only have one shot, and you want to make sure that it’s accurate. I can tell you, we talked about it, how it increases the value by educating the adjuster. It can increase the value by educating the mediator. But sometimes, when you actually have to go to trial, then it increases the value by simplifying the injuries, the explanation, so people can understand it to the juries. The other thing is the doctors. My experience has been when the doctors, I talked about what happened when they show an inaccurate diagram, but when they see an accurate diagram, they build confidence. They’re actually more willing to help you. It’s amazing to me. I talk to doctors on a regular ongoing basis, and they don’t see good medical illustrations. When they do, they are amazed and impressed. Then, that makes your job as the trial lawyer so much easier.

Bob Shepherd: Yeah, I think it reflects well on you because you have considered their opinion. You want to make them look good, and you value their testimony, so you’ve invested well in supporting that testimony. You don’t want to make them compromised when they have to say, “Yes, this is a fair and accurate depiction,” or you don’t want them to have to make excuses or apologies, “Yeah, this is sort of right, but not quite.” It just makes their job so much easier when things are accurate.

David Craig – host: The last thing I would say, as far as an attorney or a client, what they should ask for too, is how willing are you to work with people? I mean you can pick a lawyer who doesn’t want to talk to you, who just thinks they’re great. I always tell people there’s lawyers out there who are really good, but they may make you feel like you’re not very important. There are medical illustrators who are exactly same way. They’re not that cooperative. They’re up here, and they talk down to you because you don’t have the same backgrounds. But wouldn’t you agree that, because of the relationship between the lawyers and the medical illustrator, they really need to be able to work together and be responsive?

Bob Shepherd: Oh, I think the relationship between the illustrator and the attorney is reflective of the relationship that the attorney has with his clients. I feel the same way, sometimes. Some of the people I work with are just unapproachable. I work with people further down the line and not actually the guy that’s doing the trial. The Craig, Kelley and Faultless group, everybody there is just nice. They are so nice to work with, such a pleasure and responsive. I know your clients must feel the same way. We really do enjoy working with your firm as much as anybody in the country, and it’s really good people.

David Craig – host: Well, I appreciate that, and the feeling is likewise because I know that you will give us an illustration. We’ll work with it. If the doctor wants, and we want to tweak it a little bit, we’d make a phone call and you guys do it. You guys can work on them. If we’re on a tight schedule, you’ll work on a tight schedule. You talk with us. You walk us through it. We work together to make the best product for our clients.

David Craig – host: Again, I’ve worked with other folks and it’s not always that way, so I want to thank you for that as well.

Bob Shepherd: My pleasure.

David Craig – host: Again, thank you for being a guest on our podcast. It’s relatively painless, and I hope we’ve given some information to people that will be helpful to them.

Bob Shepherd: I hope so. I think this is some new information. I don’t know of anybody that’s ever tried a podcast like this. It’s a new subject, I think, for a lot of people.

David Craig – host: This is David Craig, and you’ve been listening to After The Crash. If you’d like more information about me or my law firm, please go to our website, ckflaw.com. Or if you’d like to talk to me, you can call 1-899-ask-David. If you would like a guide on what to do after a truck wreck, then pick up my book, Semitruck Wreck, A Guide for Victims and Their families. This is available on Amazon, or you can download it for free on our website, ckflaw.com.